Zu’s music is like a monument, properly constructed, the one that I’ve been settled in since I remember. Over 27 years of pure nonconformism in sound creation. Titans of thick and magnificent experimentalism, perfectionists, and storm bearers. Live shows? POETRY and pure magic. I’ve counted over 20 albums (every one of them is a masterpiece, and every one of them is different), splits and collabs with (just for example) Mats Gustafsson, Eugene Robinson, Dälek, Mike Patton, Nobukazu Takemura… Maybe I’m bad at math, but man… If that’s not fucking impressive, then I don’t know what is. And still, the multiple genres and ideas exploitation goes on, and it doesn’t look like they will lose even a drop of inspiration sprinkled with this crazy drive anytime soon. Well, I sincerely hope I made a proper introduction and made it clear.
Now… When I was asked to talk to Zu in terms of Avant Art Festival/Anxious Musick Magazine cooperation, I became instantly paralyzed. I am aware it’s irrational. However, I’ve decided to write down all the questions I had in mind and then asked a friend for help in the impending face-to-face conversation, so you’ll see below that Paweł Zwoliński (Deerhunter Booking Agency) was the one focused on the process/time, and I was focused on the energy flow/recording as we spoke with the fathers of Zu—Massimo Farjon Pupillo & Luca Tommaso Mai—about some really interesting matters.
Avant Art Festival, Chmury, Warsaw 17.09.2025
Marta Podoska
Paweł Zwoliński: Okay, so do you remember any childhood sound that has stayed with you till this day? Maybe the sound that had an impact on your musical paths and growth or even the shape of your art as we know it for 2025?
Massimo Farjon Pupillo: For me it’s very easy. Because it’s my very first memory, I mean one that I can remember. When I was around three and a half years old, my older cousin was playing Pink Floyd Atom Heart Mother (the album with the photo of a cow on the cover) to me. So it’s the first recollection, and it’s Pink Floyd, so already an extravaganza, and already the taste went high. It was magic.
Marta Podoska: Sounded like a fairytale…
M.F.P.: It was a fairy tale, exactly. Also my cousin, to his credit, explained to me the album as a fairytale while it was playing. I don’t know if you now have memories of Atom Heart Mother, but there are all different sounds, and he was like, “See these insects, now animals, now men, and then at the end there’s the bomb,” and then he said, “Now everything starts again.” So this was my first imprint.
M.P.: Seems like reality nowadays…
M.F.P.: Well let’s hope without the bomb. Let’s leave the bomb out.
Luca Tommaso Mai: My first memory was a show on TV about many bands, English or American bands. It was very funny. I remember the music, it was the era of glam rock. The music was very aquatic. I remember the clothes, they played in high heels & they had incredible energy, it was really a shock., but the idea after was to become a musician, exactly a guitarist, yet fate wanted me to be a saxophone player.
M.P.: How old were you?
LT.M.: Very young, about four maybe.
M.P.: That was my favourite question by the way…
M.F.P.: Yeah, we can talk a lot about that, and we do talk a lot about that, because in Italy we had something like a chart, it was called a Hit Parade. If you look now, on the chart in Italy in the 70’s it’s crazy. It’s like Van der Graaf Generator, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Tangerine Dream… the first five albums in the chart. Italy was like that. They had to work really hard to destroy the culture.
M.P.: Was it really… hard to destroy the culture? It looked easy enough.
M.F.P.: Yes, very deliberate.
P.Z.: How were the conditions of music making in somehow ancient, beautiful Ostia surroundings, and how did you find each other? I’m asking this keeping in mind that the experimental yet humble approach to art in people is not easy to find.
M.F.P.: Ostia is horrible. The city I mean, Ostia was an ancient city. It’s another story. It’s part of the Roma now. The seaside Ostia, but the ancient Ostia, Ostia Antica is outside, a little thing on its own, like a monument. Ostia itself it’s really ugly. It’s like a dormitory for 500,000 people that travel to Rome and when we grew up there were no clubs, no theaters, no nothing, nothing that’s interesting.
M.P.: How did you manage to find each other then?
M.F.P.: Well me and Luca met at my first concert, I went to some concerts with my mom before like Italian song writers, you know, but my first concert on my own with Claudio Cacopardo – my school friend. I was 14 and it was the metal band Saxon. So when you are 14 you go to your first concert, you think you want to be in the first row. So we went at 11am in front of the gate of the theater tent. And it was me, my friend Claudio, Luca and his brother. The only four people. So we met and we’ve been there all day eating sandwiches made by our parents.
M.P.: So you got lucky.
M.F.P.: Yeah, and drinking our Peroni beer and at the end we were like “where are you from?” And Luca said “from Ostia”. “Well, we are from Ostia too!”. We didn’t know each other.
M.P.: That sounds like destiny.
M.F.P.: Yes, yes. Magical. 40 years ago, imagine. 84th
M.P.: That’s so beautiful.
P.Z.: So let’s go further.
M.P.: Yeah, let’s not talk. hahaha
M.F.P.: /LT.M: Hahaha This is a direction. You go directly to the future haha!
P.Z.: I’m just checking the time, we’ve got some more questions (serious tone). So how was it to dive into Shipibo Conibo culture, when you were hunting for inspiration in the steamy Peruvian jungle in times of Terminalia Amazonia recording, and naturally how did it even happen that you decided to travel across the ocean and a continent for this revelation?
M.P.: Yeah, That’s what I’m interested in.
M.F.P.: I was always interested in ancient cultures, indigenous cultures, traditions, spiritual traditions. Travelled to a lot of different places but once we were touring, we were in London, and we used to go to bookstores, like every metal band does…
M.P.: Nerds!
M.F.P: Yeah! We go to bookstores and churches.
L.T.M: Like today we were in the church. The choir was performing. It was very nice to attend this concert, and what struck me most was the closing with a very inspired hallelujah. So much so that the silence immediately after was charged with positive frequencies.
M.P.: Yes, I’ve been told when we were waiting for you, I bet it was magical as well.
M.F.P.: So, going back to the bookstore… There was this book that really fell into me, and I was like, “Okay, I have to buy this,” and I wanted to talk to someone who had been there. I started to research a lot, but I couldn’t really understand how to go or where to go, or when… because we were always busy, but then we took a break, and I was already in the other part of the world because I was in the US at that moment. I was in Gabe Serbian’s house, from The Locust, who has been our drummer, and I just decided to go there. I was following a blog by an English anthropologist, Dr. Paul Roberts. We also became friends later, and so I wrote to him that I knew that he was in the place where I had to go, and he replied and kind of invited me but also didn’t haha, like, “Who are you? Why?” But then I went there, and I stayed for a few months…
M.P.: Months!?
M.F.P.: Yeah! And then, at one point I called Luca, well when I was going sometimes backward to a little town, where there was a telephone and internet, and then I called Luca and I said “YOU HAVE TO COME!”
M.P.: Come over here man it’s fun!
L.T.M.: Yeah, he said, “You have to come.” I said, “Ok, are you sure?” Yes. OK! haha But I must say that it was a unique experience that further cemented our brotherhood.
PZ: Still, staying in the case of this album, why the Terminalia Amazonia title, because I couldn’t find any connotations between the tribe and the tree commonly known as White Olive?
M.F.P.: No, Terminalia Amazonia is a botanical name for a tree that they call Noya Rao, or in Spanish they call it Palo Volador because, they say, that this tree flies when civilization comes. Also, they say there are only three of these trees still existing. Only three they know about, but for them it’s the tree of life.
M.P.: Did you see the tree?
M.F.P.: No, I didn’t see the tree, but I tasted the tree. They do ceremonies where you receive the tree in the form of tea, or even the roots, you powder the roots, and you smoke it or you put it in hot water. So we tasted the tree.
M.P.: How was that?
M.F.P.: Incredible.
M.P.: Okay. So, it was the Terminalia Amazonia album in an instant form.
P.Z.: So one more question about this topic, because it’s a really interesting case on this album. Are you spiritually close to the ancient tribes, or do you believe in spirituality and faith somehow overpowering reality?
M.F.P.: Yes, yes, yes, of course! I mean, of course, because of course for us. It’s not kind of “of course,” like everyone should believe in this overpowering thing, but yeah, absolutely. This topic is something that is important for everyone, for us.
L.T.M.: It’s part of life.
M.F.P.: It’s part of our music.
M.P.: I really can feel that.
M.F.P.: Thank you. It’s important, I mean, we don’t make it overly clear that there is this part. A little bit for those who have eyes to see. But we don’t impose anything, it’s still a part of life, our personal and spiritual, part that informs what we do. And it’s the most important thing in what we do. Everything else is life. Everything else is supporting this.
M.P.: Ok, so what about “Zu”? Is it connected to the Zu bird, or maybe Anzû, a divine being associated with the southern wind and thunderclouds? A deity rooted in ancient Mesopotamian mythology? Or maybe there’s a meaning from the inside that only you can explain?
M.F.P.: The name kind of fell on us. All of a sudden it was clear that our name was Zu. Only after we started to realize many meanings, Anzû is one of them, one of the hidden things. So it’s something that you caught.
L.T.M.: We were locked in the rehearsal room for two years straight, almost every day. Then, as we started playing live shows around the world, we met people who were revealing the different meanings of the name “Zu.” to us. For example, in China there is a mountain called Zu. In Japanese, “zu” means drawing. So we were closed and, thanks to this experience, we have become very open.
P.Z.: Something about the present now. The web says that you are currently working on the new long play. Is it true? Also please tell us what, when, and how, and if so, will you be playing some of this enigmatic new material today?
M.F.P.: No. Today is the last show with the old material. We’re wrapping a lot of years today with all the Carboniferous, Cortar Todo material that we’re playing. We wrap it up today.
L.T.M.: So the past ends here. Tonight.
M.F.P.: We still cannot say anything more, and the label asked us to keep silent until October 14 when we’ll announce the first single, and the album title, and all of that.
P.Z.: One question about music right now. How much of your daily time does the music consume? Are you surrounded by music daily? All day?
L.T.M.: Yeah. A lot. Sometimes it’s not music but just staying in sound. Sometimes silence. It’s the same thing we talked about before. I listen to a lot of mantras or spiritual music, and not only this, but also much more during this period. Some kind of spoken word just to find focus and, more importantly, peace. It’s easier to calm down after some experiences. That helps.
M.P.: There is a sound in silence. I think silence also can be fun.
P.Z.: I need to start liking silence hahaha! Are you writing music or maybe it’s mostly improvisation?
M.F.P.: It’s not improvisation at all.
L.T.M.: At all.
M.F.P.: I mean, we can only improvise the dynamics. It’s the only thing that is improvised. Every night, when we feel each other and play with the dynamics, and then go in a slightly different way. But everything is set in stone. Still a lot of people think that it’s improvised so…
PZ: Someone would say it’s free jazz…
M.F.P.: It’s not free and it’s not jazz.
P.Z.: I know it’s not, but someone who is involved in your music might say something like that.
M.F.P.: It’s strange for us that it can come across like this because it’s not free and it’s not jazz. But I kind of understand, because a lot of what you hear normally is all the same. So it’s not that we try to be different, it’s just what we are. Like, when we wrote the new album, we spent one year, except for shows, one year in the basement, and Luca had said this thing in the beginning, “Let’s not even try to sound like Zu.” You know, it’s like we just express what we feel, and this music comes, but it’s not something that we try to do, it really comes.
P.Z.: What have you been listening to recently? Maybe some Polish music?
L.T.M: Sincerely, just Chopin.
M.P.: Chopin. You know he’s dead. Right?
L.T.M: Haha yeah. There are some young blabbers too, but I also know Decapitated, a little more modern.
M.F.P.: I’ve been listening to Lenny Rosołowski today, who is using some sort of binaural sounds, to reconnect very quickly, so after soundcheck I had to go to the hotel and listen to this for 40 minutes. I don’t know exactly where he is from. It’s called Advanced Mind Institute. It’s very interesting, and it’s really good.
M.P.: I’ll check that out.
M.F.P.: Yeah, give it a look.
M.P.: It’s like something that literally goes inside your head.
M.F.P.: Yeah, they use different frequencies at the same time, and your brain produces another frequency in between the two.
M.P.: Merging with the sound from the outside.
M.F.P.: It depends who plays before us, but sometimes we play some of these frequencies before our live shows. Just to clean the energy in the room.
P.Z.: Okay, we did it to the last question. And it will be a question about the future… If there is any. Because it feels like we are getting to the end of times, the planet’s exploitation, capitalism, wars and psychopaths in power. What do you think about that? Does it have any influence on your art? As Houellebecq said, “Art is the best in suffering.” What do you think about all of this?
M.F.P.: This informs our music. Except for the suffering part. I mean, it’s been informing our music for many years, not only now. We had the sense of shit coming long ago…
L.T.M: If you read our titles, it’s there.
MP: Yes, the music and the titles told me that this is the question I should ask.
M.F.P.: Yeah, very good question. It’s really the first time someone asked this and we appreciate it.
P.Z.: So maybe we can assume that your music is some kind of apocalyptic.
M.F.P.: Even post-apocalyptic, yes. I mean, either you live on a very, very surface level, but if you know, you go deep and you go into a sort of mythological meeting with the world. Also, “apocalypse”, as a term, as a word, has been misunderstood because it doesn’t actually mean destruction, it means revelation. So now we can see things a lot better. We can see, I mean… if you don’t see how people in power are fucked up and how psychopathic they are, you’re basically blind at this point.
M.P.: Dead inside.
M.F.P.: You have to see that! The veils are down…
M.P.: So may I see your music as a way of trying to adjust to the moment?
M.F.P.: I think we try to… raise and call the energies. For us, in the beginning it was a sort of self-therapy through sound and then became something we realised was happening to other people. People normally feel better, and it’s strange because this music is quite… On the surface level it’s quite harsh and it’s hard, but normally we see that people, after a show, are smiling and they feel better, and we didn’t play reggae exactly, so it’s just that energies are really rising.
M.P.: It also really feels like you love that and I very much appreciate this.
L.T.M.: Thank you. Every hour and minute, the same way. We are like a frequency. Sometimes we stay really focused, but the emotions of the other thing must go away.
M.P.: So it’s the fluidity of the creation.
M.F.P.: There’s a part which is therapeutic, it’s a modern kind of therapy, but it doesn’t mean when you’ve done therapy you’re supposed to feel better, but there’s some moments where I can really feel palpable joy. There’s a lot of it!
L.T.M: It’s not like suffering at all.
M.P.: Eat that Houellebeckq!
*Noya Rao/El Palo Volador
In the Amazon jungle near Iquitos, Peru there is a tree called Noya Rao. Noya Rao means “flying (plant) medicine” in Shipibo, an indigenous Amazonian language, and indeed Noya Rao is believed by many Shipibo people to possess the remarkable ability to confer the power of flight onto humans who undertake to learn from her. Decades ago, at a time when many indigenous Shipibo believed she was extinct or merely mythical, a Shipibo master healer began a ritual practice referred to as a pipe “diet” with a pipe made from her wood. He ingested the smoke and prayed to her until she appeared to him and revealed her living location far from the Shipibo homelands of Ucayali.
Lorna Headlock Center for Latin American Studies at the University of Chicago.
From the Dissertation: Called by the Plants: The multicultural, multinatural world of humans and teacher plants in the Peruvian Amazon.
zuism.net
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