ἀπὸ τῶν καρπῶν αὐτῶν ἐπιγνώσεσθε αὐτούς [By the fruit you will recognise them]*.
Twining around the trunk I slowly took a bite from the Sublime Retreat tree. First, second, third, then another one and another, each time different taste, but the same source “Taste and see that the Sound is good; Blessed is the one who takes refuge in him”** The taste changed itself into the sound, the sound into the image and I heard whispers from the ancient past.
This is how I met Taras Opanasiuk without exchanging even one word with him. I decided to change that, so I talked to him and the fruits of my work can be found below. So please take and eat and feel free to savour stories of the sublime retreat.
Artur Mieczkowski
* New Testament, Gospel Matthew
**Paraphrase of Psalm
Artur Mieczkowski: What were your beginnings in the world of experimental music? What prompted you to set up Sublime Retreat?
Taras Opanasiuk: I’ve always been a music lover and have been listening to a lot of stuff since I was a teenager and I approached experimental music from different angles, whether it was krautrock, avant-garde jazz or the rise of adventurous electronic music in the 90s. But my deep dive began when I started finding obscure stuff in music stores during my travels, especially reissues of some past albums I didn’t even know existed, and at the same time I started attending more niche experimental music festivals like the (now defunct) Incubate in the Netherlands, which featured a wide range of artists working in hard-to-categorize areas of music. Alongside this, I studied literature on the subject, researching under-the-radar labels and distributors involved in this sort of thing. This research is still ongoing and I hope I never get bored of it because it’s a very inspiring process.
Sublime Retreat is my second project. The first one started with my friends Andy Nyxta and Michael Finn from Kyiv. We had a few concepts and archival materials that we wanted to publish. Having no experience and no idea of how and what to do, we were full of enthusiasm. The result was the foundation of the Default label, which released limited editions of cassettes and floppy disks. It had a kind of retro-futuristic aesthetic of using old physical formats in a modern context and focused on musical archeology. We released materials by underground Ukrainian artists that had been hidden in vaults, some of them even for 20 years. It was at Default that I curated my first big release with international artists – the “Centiweek” compilation, the concept of which was to play with the perception of time.
While working on the releases at Default, I collected some material from artists that didn’t quite fit into the label’s conceptual framework.
At the same time, I developed a vision for the new label. The idea of Sublime Retreat was to find a safe place, to escape into imaginary journeys through the listening experience. We live in a rather intrusive audiovisual environment. Even if we don’t notice it, we are constantly exposed to the “attention economy” – annoying advertisements, social media, and just city noise. Thus, I imagined immersion in long soundscapes as a kind of creative escapism and a political act of building a personal autonomous environment. I use the word “creative” because I see such listening not as just an escape from reality, but as an enriching transformative experience. Like a real journey, listening can give us new perspectives and transcend ourselves. Since then, we have also entered times of disasters, pandemics and then a war. In these turbulent times, I perceive such listening also as a kind of necessary recreation.
Thus, the conceptual elements of the label were a long duration and sound material that can take the listener on a journey to imaginary worlds. The latter may seem rather vague and poetic, and very subjective, but such uncertainty gives me room for maneuver and search for various forms.
In terms of forms, I am less interested in static ambient or monotonous drone (even if I released a few), and more in works that contain an interestingly diverse sound environment for the mind to wander and certain narrative elements.
Some examples of such works for me are hybrid soundscapes of Bruno Duplant, exotic collages of The Dead Mauriacs, or pieces with granular textures of Deli Kuvveti.
Initially, preference was given to long soundscapes, but formal requirements began to be omitted for the sake of an idiosyncratic artistic vision. For example, the releases of Vehicle and Falter Bramnk are collections of shorter pieces, but both are very unique sound worlds that I want to explore and return to many times.
Generally I treat my work on a label as journey itself, where I explore new things on the way and share them with the audience.
Finally, I want to quote Frans de Waard from Vital Weekly “..the Polish label Sublime Retreat has the perfect name for the music they release. It is music for a retreat, for the listener to engage in some fine relaxing modus to do what they want to do”.
A.M.:
How do you define experimental music? Are there boundaries that you
think should not be crossed in this genre?
T.O.: Let me start with a brief historical retrospective. In the 1960s and 1970s, experimental music was somewhat easier to define because it was based on post-Cage practices. In the circle of practitioners, this meant a certain set of methodologies. To name just a few: chance procedures, limiting the composer’s control, blurring the boundary between composer and performer, so-called open works (to be interpreted by performers), the use of graphic scores, extended techniques (playing instruments in unusual ways to explore their sonic possibilities). This is a vast topic, but I will indulge the sin of simplification and say that experimental music originally meant what John Cage defined as a process whose result is unknown. For some time, experimental music was considered an American phenomenon (including, for example, the New York minimalists), in opposition to the avant-garde active in Europe (musique concrete, the Darmstadt school, Stockhausen). Sometimes it also included artists engaged in free improvisation, composers such as Cornelius Cardew and John Tilbury.
Later it began to include everything that was happening outside the mainstream.
And there is so much going on outside of the mainstream that nowadays experimental music is really hard to define, it can mean anything that sounds “weird.”
You won’t find a category of experimental music in most record stores, some things can be found on electronics stands. In one store I saw a booth called Exotica, which included library music and obscure early electroacoustic music. However, some online distributors use this category. I think discogs define experimental music in the best way, as not a style, but a sensibility, “an effort to explore new musical frontiers and expand the boundaries of musical experience.”
So in answering the question of how I define experimental music, I would agree with the latter statement. I would also agree with discogs that there is a lot of potential for misuse of this tag. That’s why I try not to use the term often, but to be more precise when talking about specific albums or artists. However, I’m still guilty of overusing the term frequently, especially when I ask what kind of music I’m releasing, because it’s an easier answer.
As for boundaries, I believe that there should be none in order for experimental music to continue to develop. In the process of rejecting conventions, completely new genres emerged.
I myself can only set certain rules related to releases on Sublime Retreat.
A.M.: What are the main criteria you use to select artists to collaborate with?
T.O.: At the moment, I’m not working with the submitted demos , at least for a while. I have several releases planned, commissioned or proposed by artists I’m in contact with.
The first thing I usually think about is whether the material fits the overall vision of the label. I often make an intuitive decision by asking myself – does this resonate with me and my view of what Sublime Retreat can express at the moment? As I mentioned earlier, formal criteria such as duration are important but can be omitted. If there is intrigue in the sound for me, it’s a sign that I can consider the material for a release. Ultimately, the most important criterion is authentic artistic expression.
A.M.: Do you have a favourite edition or artist you have collaborated with? What makes this release special to you?
T.O.: I treat all releases equally and love them all with no exception. But I’d like to tell a story about one release because it’s connected to the history of the label.
In 2017, I attended a concert by Alfredo Costa Monteiro during the Sanatorium of Sound festival. It was a performance of the piece “Fragments of an Unfinished Story”, which consists of samples of soundtracks to films, mostly Eastern European new wave. I was very impressed because it was something new for me. I used to listen to more consistent forms, here it was a sound collage, but everything was combined so organically and created a narrative flow that it felt like a separate soundtrack to some non-existent movie. I met with Alfredo after the concert and offered to make a release. He agreed, but it turned out to be a difficult task, mainly because of legal issues and getting permission from all the movie’s copyright holders. So we postponed the idea and decided to release another work of Alfredo that he performed at the festival, and that’s how Sublime Retreat’s first release, “Invisible Light”, came about.
But I still wanted to release that cinematic work. Because of the aforementioned difficulties with copyright, we had the idea to make a new work in the same direction, but without references to the films. We discussed it several times on Skype, and then Alfredo created what was eventually called “Transitional Spaces as Impermanent Lines.” It’s a work for found sounds, inspired by the found footage technique in experimental cinema, where images, often from anonymous sources, are shown as if they were edited into a narrative by those who literally found them. To me, it has the same mesmerizing quality and emotionally engaging storytelling, it is dreamlike but also has some dramatic turns.
In April of this year, we organized a premiere of the work on the day of its release in Barcelona. It was a four-speaker listening session to create a true “cinema for the ears” experience followed by a Q&A session. Thus, the idea was finally realized, and Alfredo and I were very happy with the event and the CD.
A.M.: What is the publishing process like at Sublime Retreat?
T.O.: Each release has standard phases – production, promotion and distribution.
The 2 key elements related to production are sound and cover art. Here I constantly collaborate with 2 people – Rafał Sądej for mastering and Rutger Zuydervelt for design. Establishing a trusting and productive relationship with them and clearly defined processes ensure that everything runs smoothly during the production phase.
Quite often, the artist will provide the final master, which simplifies the process, but still requires an evaluation of the material to make sure there are no problems. Sometimes, when I think that a little work on the material will be beneficial, I discuss it with the artist and find a solution that suits both of us.
The production ends with the printing of CDs or duplication of cassettes. I work with a known company called Monotype, since we use standard design templates from them, the initiation of this stage usually goes quite quickly. CD production usually takes about 20 working days.
The promotion stage includes getting in contact with radio stations, bloggers, magazines. It’s a lot of communication, writing emails and visiting post offices to send physical copies.
The delivery of physical releases to distributors takes place in parallel with promotion, which aims to get the stuff to as many stores as possible.
A.M.: What are the biggest challenges in promoting and distributing experimental music?
T.O.: The biggest challenges are all interconnected, these are: reaching and expanding the audience, getting the stuff into stores and keeping an eye on budget. Bringing a CD or tape to a known store means getting more visibility for the label but sometimes it is hard to get in contact with. I have distributors that I work with continuously and I am quite happy with that, but there is a need for more distribution. And as far as I know from other label owners, for those who have been running labels for much longer than I have, it’s still a challenge.
A.M.: What role does the physical format play in your label’s operations? Do you settle for a digital-only release, or is the physical medium an indispensable part of your passion for publishing?
T.O.: Physical format was one of the key principles when I founded the label, and it remains so today. In the age of streaming services, where there is a lot of music available in a few clicks, the physical format matters to me and adds a value to the release. I treat it like an art object, the feeling of touching the envelope, opening it and looking at the cover adds a special aesthetic dimension. Inserting a CD, cassette or record into the player becomes part of a ritual where you really take a more thoughtful approach to listening and dedicate your time to it. In an age of digital dominance, there are still a large number of record collectors. The thought of the label’s releases finding a place on their shelves gives me warm feelings.
A.M.: Do you observe any particular trends or changes in experimental music in recent years?
T.O.: I am by no means an expert in such observations and only have a specific view of what is happening on the scene. I also think that there is so much going on right now that we can really evaluate current trends from the perspective of a few years in the future. I will, however, make some of my subjective comments. First, I’ll repeat myself here – there is so much going on that it’s hard to keep track of everything. This really contrasts with the developed ecosystem and available tools – artists and labels have all the means to get their music online, but it gets lost in the ocean of sound without proper promotion. I believe that high visibility is gained by music that is able to reach key distributors and press, and what is available there is the tip of the iceberg. Other trends in the experimental scene that I observe perhaps resonate with the book “Music after the Fall” by Tim Rutherford-Johnson.
The last edition is from 2017, but I think many of the things described there are still relevant and even more visible. I’ll mention a few things.
- “Permission” to do what one wants. This trend is not new, but it has expanded considerably. There are no taboos or genre restrictions anymore, a variety of tools and approaches can be used in new and unconventional ways, sound poetry mixes with 8-bit game music, a symphony composed for sound objects made of household items or a pop tune spiced up with harsh noise. I used extreme examples straight from my head, but I won’t be surprised if someone creates such things as I write this.
- A variety of new forms have been created from mixing and combining existing ones. While there may be something completely unique and new things, quite often there is an approach of reusing and recycling previous genres.
- Crossover of mainstream and avant-garde. The latter is also very much related to the marketing of experimental music on many levels. Niche experimental festivals have mixed lineups of underground legends and more popular performers to attract a wider audience. Sound art events have after-parties with techno DJs. There is also a fashion for mixing pop and experimental genres, such as combining melodic tunes with field recordings.
I deliberately refrained from personal evaluation of the mentioned trends, because there is nothing good or bad about a particular thing, for me it is the result of what the artist does that is interesting, regardless of whether it fits into some fashionable trend or not.
A.M.: What are your thoughts on the place of experimental music in mainstream media? Do you think it should get more recognition? How do you see the future of experimental music? Are there any directions you would like to see Sublime Retreat develop in?
T.O.: I am for the popularization of experimental music, one way or another. I have a utopian, idealized vision of experimental music being accepted by a wider audience. At the same time, despite all the available promotional tools and modern marketing approaches, there is still resistance from an overwhelming number of the population on this planet to treat what is happening in the experimental scene as music in general. This is understandable, since experimental music is still relatively young, and centuries of domination by the Western system of 12 equal temperament, first in classical music and then in popular music, have created a canon of what can be accepted as listenable. Thus, experimental pieces that will have at least some similarity in melody or harmony have a better chance of reaching mainstream audiences. For field recordings, musique concrète, noise, sound art or avant-garde electroacoustics, this will be much more problematic. The future is difficult to predict. I think that experimental music has the potential to expand its influence, but its listeners will remain a small minority for a long time.
As for Sublime Retreat, various forms of soundscapes will be explored for years to come.I think there will be more “cinema for the ears,” imaginary soundtracks and other ways to send listeners into strange sound worlds.
A.M.: What place does visual art have in your business? How much importance do you give to the graphic design of your publications?
T.O.: This is a very important aspect, and I make sure that the visual presentation of the release harmoniously complements the sound and is consistent with the label’s design. I’ve had a long collaboration with Rutger Süjdervelt, who created the label’s CD packaging style and makes each new cover according to a standard of key design elements.
For me, it’s important that each cover is in line with the artist’s unique vision, my preferences for specific releases and the label’s standard design, and Rutger does a really great job with this, I trust him completely.
Quite often, the initial graphic material is provided by the artist, and then Rutger works with them to create a complete cover design. Here I can also give some suggestions if I have a specific idea. Sometimes the artist does not propose graphics, and the label does everything for him, in which case I give Rutger ideas as a starting point.
A special case is when there is also a visual artist who creates the main images, then it turns out to be a collaboration between the musician, graphic artist and Rutger. It’s a very exciting process, and that’s what happened with The Dead Mauriacs’ release and my album “Spontaneous Dimensions”.
We worked with Evan Crankshaw for both projects. Evan is really talented and deeply involved in the creative process, he listens to music for inspiration to create graphic elements for his collages, and we exchange ideas while working on the cover. It’s very inspiring and I would like to do more collaborations with him in the future.
A.M.: You also make music yourself under the banner of Innovative Landscapes Laboratory. What inspires you in your work?
T.O.: I founded Innovative Landscapes Laboratory in 2015, inspired by the field recordings I made in downtown Wroclaw during long walks and explorations of the city. It was a time when I had just moved from Kyiv and was fascinated by the city, which I had come to love from the very beginning. That’s when I came up with the idea of combining these field recordings with synthesizer sounds to create a kind of impressionistic sound paintings of the various places where I walked. As a result, I ended up with my first release, “City Flow Projections,” which I treated as an experiment in the sound lab, and that’s when I got the idea for the project’s name.
At the time, I was influenced by a wide range of ambient music, but especially early Eno and his collaborations with Cluster, as well as field recordings by artists such as Chris Watson, so I assume that this music also influenced the creation of the album.
Since then, I have treated everything I do as if I were working in a laboratory, trying different things and looking for ideas and sound development. Since the beginning of the project I have been influenced by all kinds of life experiences, my travels both real and imaginary, books, movies and of course the wide variety of music I listen to.
For the past 5 years or so, one of my great obsessions has been modular synthesizers and all the culture associated with them. They did for me a paradigm shift of how I approach composition, improvisation and generally the nature of creative processes. It became more engaging, explorative, fun and opened an infinite number of possibilities. It is a big topic in itself that goes far beyond the scope of this interview, so I just mention that some current projects I am involved in are connected with and influenced by usage of modular synths.
In recent years, I’ve also been interested in early electronic music, both musique concrete and electroacoustics, particularly composers associated with the GRM studio but not only. These people had quite limited equipment, but they were very inventive. It’s incredible what they were able to achieve with tape, a few filters and oscillators. Their influence is still felt today, and I think their legacy will be important in the future. This obsession coincided with private lessons in electroacoustic music that I took from Yannis Patoukas, a teacher at the Institute of Sonology in Utrecht. This experience, along with my experiments with modular synthesizers, resulted in the album “Spontaneous Dimensions,” which I released this year on Sublime Retreat.
At the moment I am also fascinated by the variety of eclectic sound collages I found over the internet.The art of combining unrelated materials into one sound canvas gives me inspiration and ideas for future projects.
Finally, I would also like to mention that I really like the so-called sound walks. For me, it’s wandering aimlessly through lesser-known parts of the city, listening to music and enjoying the play of sound and changing scenery, which creates aesthetically interesting perspectives. I think in some way it can also inspire my creative endeavors.
A.M.: Are there any projects you’re most looking forward to in the coming months? What release plans does Sublime Retreat have?
T.O.: I look forward with excitement to all the upcoming projects! This year there will be an album based on field recordings by Emmanuele Meville made during his travels to Asia. Plans for 2025 are a bit vague at the moment, but I am currently working on some commissioned projects. Also, one release will definitely come out next year, it will be Philippe Petit’s “Emperor Tomato Ketchup” made using the Buchla system and acoustic instruments, which will launch a series dedicated to avant-garde, obscure or weird B-grade films. The concept of the series is an alternative soundtrack that is not synchronized with the visual scene, but is a kind of sound fantasy inspired by the film. I am also pleased to mention that a new album is planned for Moan, a project by Rafal Sej, whom I have already mentioned as a regular collaborator in mastering for the label.
A.M.: Thank you very much for the interview and I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavours.
T.O.: It was my pleasure! Thank you for the invitation and the good questions. I wish you all the best in continuing to run a great magazine!